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Speaker A: Hey, I’m Kate Lindsey, and you’re listening to icymi, or in case you missed it, Slate’s podcast about Internet culture. And today on the show, we are welcoming back Josh Laura. Josh is a content creator and writer who breaks down pop culture through a sociological lens. Josh, welcome back.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Speaker A: We are here today to talk about Chapel Roan and specifically why it feels like the Internet is always trying to cancel her. But first, Josh, you and I are new members of a group that I am calling Lindy West Discourse. Anonymous.

Speaker B: Oh, my God. I actually just published a substack today, and half of it was just bullets, where it was like, everyone else’s, like, thoughts and all the discourse. But I’m happy to be back.

Speaker A: No, I wanted to talk about it because I would say, like, you and I both kind of found ourselves as maybe not primary sources, but, like, part of it, part of the discourse. Because you. I would say, and to your credit, you, like, hopped on this discourse before it actually, I think, even had the book come out yet. I don’t.

Speaker B: Yeah. So the day that the Modern Love interview came out, I said, and what’s this? Yeah, so I had obviously been following the case, and I was.

Speaker A: The case is so funny.

Speaker B: Well, I was very tapped into when they did the throuple announcement, and I said, oh, what’s this now? So I listened to the interview the day it dropped, and I made my video the day it dropped and it went viral. And as I said in everywhere else, the sort of Jezebel era commenters were very mad at me. The Lindy west hive, like Gen X versus everyone else. So I found myself sort of watching this. It wasn’t even a generational war. It was like Jezebel era commenters versus the polyamory community who were standing up for themselves. And they were like, this isn’t poly. She doesn’t represent us. Yeah, because I sort of framed my investigation as. I don’t think that you are qualified to speak as a leader of the poly community when we know the circumstances of your journey into polyamory. And everyone agreed with me. And then, of course, the Jezebel era commenters were like, how dare you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I know. We’ve had. Weirdly. I say weirdly because you’re not used to this on the Internet. Like, I was similarly gearing up because I had, you know, seen your video and then obviously, the sort of that dynamic you just described. And then I was waiting to get the Same type of divided feedback. Weirdly, for the most part, I think we got a lot of people who were new to the discourse. Cause it’s something. I don’t know if you noticed this, but there’s a divide in people who even know who Lindy west is. Do you get it? Like, does Gen Z care about this?

Speaker B: No. So actually, right after all, everything dropped, the book dropped, I went on vacation, and I was trying to, like, explain all of this to a friend. And it’s very like talking to your friend who’s not online, which you understand. They were like, what? And I’m like, no, she’s so famous. She’s so famous. And they were like, I’ve never heard that name in my life. And I’m like, shrill on Hulu. And they were like, what is that?

Speaker A: What is that?

Speaker B: It’s so bizarre. Cause, like, as a person who was raised on Jezebel and, like, the Internet and Gawker, et cetera, this is someone who’s, like, loomed large in the imagination for so long and someone who I really, really respected for 20 years and trying to explain to people, why are you upset about this?

Speaker A: I’m like, well, I think that’s what’s been the weirdest part. And I wonder how you experience this where it’s like, I now accidentally find myself unwillingly being almost the antagonist in a story, in the broader narrative with someone who, like, I loved and still really respect and think she’s an amazing writer. And I wrote in my newsletter, kind of reflecting on this. I was like, I do think I have to give up the sort of hypothetical friendship between Lindy west and I that was always looming, where now it’s like, I don’t think that’s happening. I think that’s a job hazard, is that sometimes your heroes won’t be your friend.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I loved your newsletter, by the way, and I thought it was very realistic because it’s. It’s like when you’re on the Internet for long enough, you sort of, like, see people transform and change, hopefully for the better.

Speaker A: For the better.

Speaker B: Often not. And I sort of experienced something similar with someone who has a book coming out now, and I’m watching their substack presence, and I’m like, why are you doing this? The monster of promotion and performing your identity online comes for us all, even if you’re very famous and very successful.

Speaker A: Right. I know. Maybe when I get into my throuple and then I have to write about it, I’ll be like, you know what that was? I get it now, but it’s funny because while this, I mean, the discourse is still going on, it’s one of like the longest sort of discourses I’ve ever seen. But when it was initially hitting there was this funny tweet that someone did where they were like to distract from the emails that we read in the podcast. Aham. Must have planted the Chapel Roan security guard controversy. Which is funny because that discourse is actually what we are here to talk about today. When we come back, why the Internet loves to hate Chapel. And we’re back and this episode is about Chapel Roan who as a musician we don’t normally have reason to talk about on this podcast. But it is kind of surprising this is our first time talking, doing a Chapel Roan episode because I would say outside of, you know, Hot to Go and Pink Pony Club, the thing she is best known for is being involved in these kind of outrage cycles on the Internet. Most recently it was something that involves a security guard and Chapel Ron allegedly like sicing a security guard on an 11 year old. Like truly ridiculous. But I think what we’re here to talk about today is like, what is it about Chapel Roan specifically that sort of generates these sort of like, Chapel Roan hates kids, Chapel Rohn hates her fans type of headlines that happen, I would say every three months. So we’re gonna start with just this incident. This was on March 21st. Did you kind of learn about this the same way everyone else did? Like did you see when did you come to the saga of her allegedly sending a security guard on a child?

Speaker B: Sorry, I’ve been like giggling this whole time. It’s so ridiculous. So I actually came by this via Inception was transplanted into the middle of the discourse through the Nepo angle. So I know that you’re gonna explain it, but it came to me where they were like, did you hear about Jude Law’s kid being terrorized? And I said, what?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And then I had to familiarize myself with everything and it’s been ongoing ever since.

Speaker A: Yeah, Though the Jude Law of it all is truly a jump scare. But I’ll explain how he even factors into this. So basically it all starts with an Instagram story, as things do these days, by a Brazilian soccer player named Jorginho in. And he goes just by one name, which is, I mean one. I gotta, you know, respect that. But he posted this Instagram story about his stepdaughter, the who is 11 year old chapel Roan fan and his wife and his stepdaughter were staying at this hotel in Rio de Janeiro for Lollapalooza. And I guess what happened is when they were at breakfast, the daughter saw Chapel Roan walk by with like her entourage and go sit down. But she wasn’t certain that it was Chapel Roan. And so she did like one of those savvy type kind of like drive bys that where you’re like, well, I’m just gonna go walk out there, get a closer look and come back. Which is what she did. But apparently according to both her stepdad and also her mom who took to Instagram with like the longest video.

Speaker B: Oh my God, 25 minutes long.

Speaker A: Yeah, I guess a security guard shortly after followed the 11 year old came to her table and started berating both of them for, you know, I guess, you know, violating boundaries, harassing Chapel Roan and people immediately once this Instagram story was posted that detailed this ran with it because it affirms this narrative that people have had for a while, that Chapelron hates her fans. Which we will get into where that comes from. This Instagram story is posted, everyone immediately is like, why did Chapelron like this? You know, like immediately on the side of the 11 year old? Cause you know, you do kind of have to be. But then Chapelroan posts this sort of response on Instagram, direct a camera from bed. From bed. So I will say this could have been better, but let’s, let’s. Maybe we should listen to it now.

Speaker C: I’m just going to tell my half of the story of what happened today with a mother and child who were involved with a security guard who is not my personal security. I didn’t even see. I didn’t even see a woman and a child. Like, I did not. No one came up to me. No one bothered me. Like I was just sitting at breakfast in my hotel. I think these people were staying at the hotel as well. So the fact that like a security guard who is. I did not ask the security guard to go up and talk to this mother and child. I did not. They did not come up to me. They weren’t doing anything. It’s unfair for security to just assume someone doesn’t have good intentions when they have no reason to believe because there’s no action even taken. Like, I do not hate people who are fans of my music. I do not hate children. Like, that is crazy. I’m sorry to the mother and child that that someone was assuming something, that you would do something and that if he felt uncomfortable, that makes me really sad. You did not deserve that.

Speaker D: So.

Speaker A: Well, number One, I will say brag, I never thought Chapel Roan actually sticked a security guard on an 11 year old child. But I will say when this came out, I said we could have done it the past attack.

Speaker B: I will also say at the top, I’m gonna spend the rest of the episode defending Chapel. But I will say, I think the very aggressive distancing language, the mother and child, mother and child, the security that I did not hire, it’s all very passive, which I know is very like pr, you know, there’s been a couple of consultants that are helping out with this little statement. But I’m also just like, oh, it just sounds so bad. And being where I’m from, like, gay Twitter.

Speaker A: Yes, where I’m from, where I live.

Speaker B: Where I live, Gay Twitter. Gay Twitter obviously took this and like clipped it and ran with it and there are so many memes. So as I said, I was sort of incepted into it because I started seeing the Jude Law of it all and then I saw the memes and I’m like, what is she talking? This can’t be real. And it was real.

Speaker A: It was real and it was. Yeah. So this was not, I would say the best response. I think the best response would have been free tickets and been like, I don’t know why, you know, this wasn’t my security guard. But like, whatever, you know, if Chapel wants my how I would do it, she can pay me, but I would. Yes, I agree. I am very pro Chapel Roan and this episode is about so many misconceptions that pop up online about her. But in this case I will say, yeah, could have been better. But then on the 22nd of March, the mother. And so this is also the family tree that we have here. So the 11 year old is the daughter of Katherine Harding and Jude Lawrence Harding is now married to Jorginho. Making Jorginho the 11 year old’s stepfather father who stepped up and posted an Instagram story about Chapel Roan. So Kathryn Harding also posts a video on Instagram. We will not clip it because it’s genuinely just really long. But she says some interesting things in it. One of them being they don’t even know if it was Chapel Roan. She’s like, we never, you know, we never actually got that confirmed. And also that like they weren’t really in the room when it happened. Like she makes this video to kind of without doing it on purpose because she ends up liking some shady comments about Chapel Roan. She does post this to try and sort of rebut Chapel’s statement. But in it reveals some things that is like, wait, who was there? Like, Georgina wasn’t even there. No, he posted the story secondhand. So I would say, you know, to the discerning mind, this starts to unravel a bit as like, oh, I think this might. This is not as cut and dry as it seems. And then, lo and behold, on the 25th, this bodyguard confirms that he was not affiliated with Chapel Roan. And this is very much just sort of someone who is in a role of security. Maybe getting a little bit too emboldened by that based on past experiences, but it is not someone that Chapelron directed to go and harass this 11 year old, which I would like to think we all knew.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I will say that sort of reveal has gotten far less attention than Chapel Roan has sent a security guard on a child.

Speaker B: I will also say two quick things, unfortunately, again, gay Twitter. I received this update from the bodyguard from Pop Crave, which we don’t have time to get into, but PopCrave posted a shirtless picture of this man, and I was even more confused.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: I was like, wait, why is he shirtless?

Speaker A: They’re like, you’re gonna look.

Speaker B: And secondly, I do think that, again, to defend her, I think that there were some instructions in a writer of some sort that were like, do not understand under any circumstance let anyone approach Chapel ever, ever, ever. I think it is very clear from all the discourse and everything that we’re about to talk about that Chapel does not want people approaching her.

Speaker A: No. Yeah. Yes. It is a sort of understandable desire that I would say it’s a narrative that’s really been run with. But one of the things I found most interesting about this sort of somewhat benign interaction blowing up is that so many other celebrities have had contentious altercations with, like, fans who have gotten much more in their face. So the celebrity has gotten much more aggressive. Like, the first one I thought about was Jason Kelsey. There was a video of someone coming up to him kind of making these comments. He takes the fan’s phone, smashes it on the ground. Can you imagine if Chapel Rowan.

Speaker B: Oh, my God.

Speaker A: Took this 11 year old’s phone and smashed it on the ground? But, like, that did not prompt any type of discourse cycle. So I’m curious about, like, why did this one blow up? Like, what is it about Chapel Roan?

Speaker B: I mean, I have some theories. Do you want me to get into the theories?

Speaker A: I would love for you to get into the theories.

Speaker B: Okay. I think one of my theories is that we constantly fluctuate between these, like, cycles of adulation and hatred for very famous women, right? So I don’t know how old your listeners are, but for people sort of my age, we remember the Anne Hathaway Oscars gate where people loved Anne Hathaway. She was our princess of Genova. Then they turned on her, right? She was annoying, she was a faker, she was a poser. Anne Hathaway disappeared for five years because she like, couldn’t take the hate, right? She came back with Ocean’s Eight and was beloved. Jennifer Lawrence went through the exact same thing where she was beloved, won an Oscar, did the Hunger Games, et cetera, et cetera. Was everyone turned on her for better reasons, I will say. Or not for cultural reasons. There’s a lot that went on there, but you know, we don’t have time to get into everything. But like, again, she was vanished. She like disappeared for five years. Rachel Zegler just went through a massive wave of this exact same thing where it’s like, it is not a crime to be a little bit unpleasant. And I’ve been saying this on TikTok for years now. Like, I think that we are sort of living in this moment culturally where if you express any emotion that’s not like, deemed the most palatable or the most like, pleasant. And I say this a lot, especially when it comes to female celebrities or women, right? Like this idea that you have to always be like, polite and sweet and docile and kind and generous. Like every. Every time Taylor Swift does something a little bit calculated or, you know, she’s an excellent businesswoman and people get mad at her, right? They’re like, she’s evil. So it is this very like baked in cultural idea that’s not. You don’t need a sociologist to tell you, like, people hate women. But like, I do think there is something about Chapel where she is so bold and like, sort of, I don’t wanna say proud, but she is just like very steadfast in who she is, which, you know, a lot of queer people really, really respect. Like, we love her because she is standing up for herself. And she is of these people who’s like, this is what I believe. She’s sort of rewriting the rules of fame. Like, she’s like, get away from me. I don’t want to hang out with the paparazzi. Like, you are annoying. And there was a lot of Internet backlash against that too. Where the idea is that like, this is sort of the Faustian bargain you really, really wanted to be famous. So you can’t now say, don’t bother me.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: But yeah, I just think that Chapel is a very, like, sorry if this is lazy, but I think she’s a loud and proud and powerful, like, slightly unpleasant, slightly annoying person. Which, again, is not evil.

Speaker A: Not a crime.

Speaker B: It’s not a crime.

Speaker A: No, you’re right. Like, the thing about her standing sort of steadfast in especially these rules of fame that she’s rewriting because I think one reason why this particular incident made so many headlines is it played into this narrative that’s followed her ever since she sort of drew her first line in the sand, which was how fans in paparazzi, the entitlement they feel to her and how that’s not something she was comfortable with. And I went to go look back, I was like, how did this narrative start? And it starts in August of 2024. She posts this clip to. I believe it’s yes, TikTok. And so this is also, like, right after she just, like, really blew up and I think is experiencing what, like, you know, legitimate mainstream fame is like. And I think it is a little bit her newness to that that allowed her to share this perspective.

Speaker D: I don’t care that abuse and harassment, stalking, whatever, is a normal thing to do to people who are famous or a little famous, whatever. I don’t care that it’s normal. I don’t care that this crazy type of behavior comes along with the job, the career field I’ve chosen. That does not make it okay. That doesn’t make it normal. I don’t. It doesn’t mean I want. It doesn’t mean that I like it. I don’t want whatever the f*** you think you’re supposed to be entitled to. When you ever see a celebrity, I’ll give a if you think it’s selfish of me to say no for a photo or for your time or to. For a hug. That’s not normal. That’s weird. It’s worth weird how people think that you know a person just because you see them online or you listen to the art they make. That’s f****** weird.

Speaker A: And so again, delivery could be better. But, like, what she’s saying is completely reasonable, which is like, wait, I just got famous and there’s now a lot of really crazy behavior that I’m expected to, like, take in stride. And it’s actually not okay. And nothing about that is. In fact, it’s what a lot of us had been saying, you know, when we talk about, like, free Britney or, like, Reflecting back on these, like, earlier moments of, you know, we’ve loved to. In the past, I would say, like, five, ten years. Be like, wow, this person deserved better by us. And so it’s interesting that what Chapel’s doing is basically being like, yes. And also right now, like, deserve better. And she’s drawing that line.

Speaker B: And I will say, if I’m remembering my discourse cycles correctly, this was like, when she was talking about her and her family being harassed at, like, Walmarts in Alabama. So it wasn’t like she was on Madison Avenue. It wasn’t like she was in La Brea. She wasn’t in la. Like, she wasn’t in a place where she expected people to sort of hound her. And it was really surprising. And she was also talking about people sort of coming up to her family and saying, oh, my God, you’re related to whatever her real name is. And, like, sort of demanding pictures and their time. So she was really drawing that line in the sand of, like, do not follow me. Do not come up to me when I’m not in costume, right? And I think one of the things a lot of people talk, a lot of queer people especially, talk about her relationship to drag and the way this Chapel Rowan Persona, this character, right? So she, like, puts on the hair, she puts on the makeup, she puts on the costumes. And I think that’s a way for her to sort of visually and characteristically separate her identities, right? She’s saying, this is like, kayleigh is me, and that’s for me, and then this is for you. So when I’m not Chapel, please don’t come up to me and demand pictures of me.

Speaker A: No. Yeah. She was like, honestly makes it very easy. She’s like, when I look like that, I’m at work and you can talk to me, and none of that sounds, you know, like a high bar. But every time, I would say, every time that line gets pushed a little bit by someone and she reacts, it goes back in the headlines. As if it isn’t just basically, like, every time she reacts is her basically being like, per my last email, I am not putting up with this. Up until literally last month, she took a video of her getting out of a car, and there were paparazzi everywhere and a fan. And it really feels like every time she’s responding to something like this, she’s really like, yes, her delivery could be better, but she’s really earnestly trying to be like, no, like, do you see what it’s like? I’m trying to show you what I’M talking about, like, it is not like, I’m not mad at having fans. It’s a really earnest attempt to be like, maybe if I show you, maybe if I try it this way or this way, or talk about it in this way, you will, like, understand what I mean. And we can listen to a bit of that clip because you can hear just, like, how nuts it is.

Speaker D: Disregarded as a human. This is what it’s like. So I’m just trying to go to dinner and I’ve asked these people several times to get away from me.

Speaker B: Please step to the side. Step to the side, person.

Speaker D: I’ve asked several times to go away, and they will not.

Speaker B: They’re hiding their face because they’re ashamed because I’ve asked them.

Speaker D: These are all the people completely disregarding all of my.

Speaker A: Then go away. Happy to see you. So I want all of you kindly to please leave me alone. Following me.

Speaker B: Something nice.

Speaker A: What are you wearing? No problem what you’re wearing. I will say. Quick note, my favorite person in that video is Clue, the fan who doesn’t quite understand what the video is. He goes, hi, baby. As if, like, he’s like, oh, I’m in her Instagram story. He’s getting read to filth.

Speaker B: This is not the story you want to be in.

Speaker A: I know, but. But, yeah, it looked nuts and it looked like, you know, you can hear when that clip begins. There’s all this shouting, all this talking, and it does appear to be happening, even though, as she says, she’s told everyone multiple times, like, enough. But again, that got taken and people just used it as part of their, like, montage of chapel roan being rude to paparazzi or fans to kind of continue this narrative of she hates being famous. She’s bad at being famous, rather than what it is. Or just like, her standing by what she said two years ago, which is like, there’s a line and you guys keep crossing it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I will say, like, being online, there is this sort of. When we talk about her rewriting her relationship to fame, sort of what we said earlier, there is this sort of pushback where people are very much like, well, no, this is like, what you wanted, right? This is what you signed up for. And I think it’s interesting. I’m sort of tying a thread back to the heated rivalry guys who are also sort of working in real time not to. I feel like I keep making, like, the laziest connections, but, like, not to make it a generational thing, but it’s interesting that these people are all sort of Gen Z, right? Like, Chapel is very young. The heated rivalry guys are very young. And they’re like, yes, Hollywood has existed as this system for 60 years now, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to play by these rules just because you want me to. And the way I think it’s interesting being on the outside of it, obviously, that, like, so many people are clinging so tightly to this, right? Like, people are like, give me what I want. Give me, like, your time and your energy and your body. And I do think it’s interesting because Chapel is like, I’m giving you my art, right? Like, I’m showing up, I’m performing. She’s at Lala, she’s here, she’s there, she’s at Fashion Week. And then she’s like, I just want to go to dinner. But there is also this argument that people make where it’s like, well, Beyonce goes to dinner and we don’t see her. Like, Taylor Swift goes to dinner and we don’t see her. Like, how can you sort of re emerge whenever you want to re emerge? And my sort of obvious asterisk to that is that, like, she’s not as famous as Beyonce and Taylor. She doesn’t have the resources that, like, if you really want to hide, I always say on TikTok, like, Natalie Portman lives in the city. I don’t know where. Like, there are so many celebrities that live in Brooklyn that I don’t know anything about. I don’t know the names of Julia Roberts. Kids. Like, if you wanted to be private, you could be private. But also, Chapel is still at the stage where she’s gearing up for her second album. She has to be at Lala. She has to do these things. So it is this constant trade off of, like, what is work, what is me, what is performance, what is my identity, what do I have to attend and be at Versus? I’m getting screamed at by hi baby.

Speaker A: Hi, baby. No, she’s not quite at the level of being carried around in a box like Taylor Swift, which when I worked at Refinery 29, I did have to email Treepane for comment on basically being like, hey, is she in this box?

Speaker B: Was she? She was.

Speaker A: We didn’t get a response, but she was. We didn’t get a response. So do with that what you. Hey there. If you are a regular listener of Icy My and you want to make sure that we can keep bringing you episodes like these, then make sure to become a Slate plus subscriber. Not only does this get you ad free listening across all Slate podcasts, but it also gets you bi weekly bonus episodes of our show including including the bonus episode that plus subscribers have in their feeds right now. In it, producer Vic Whitley Berry and I talk about AI Fruit Love island and they tell me about the extremely millennial musical that’s gotten a cult Gen Z following online. You can access that now by clicking Try Free at the top of our show page or by going to slate.com icymyplus alright, back to the episode. When we do granularly break down like what it is Chapel Rohn is asking who is the person that’s like no, your privacy should be invaded. And one of the things that we sort of later learned about this most recent controversy is that maybe no single person was initially saying that because it was investigation that BuzzFeed did with a research company called Goodea that found that a lot of this was or a significant amount of this discourse was at least instigated by bots. They looked at over 100,000 posts generated by 54 over 54,000 unique users across seven platforms in just those two days. Oh my God. I know. Which is already like the fact that there was that much is wild.

Speaker B: Lindy west wishes.

Speaker E: I know.

Speaker A: So I’ll just read what Buzzfeed wrote. They found that 4.2% of users contributing to the Chapel Roan conversation at this time were quote non typical I E were very likely to be bomb. As well as that just being a high percentage of bots in and of itself. They also accounted for over 23% of the post. So much of these things that I think were previously ideas that you would have if you were being like really paranoid are actually bearing out. There are people, there are companies who are paid by celebrities to inject and proliferate false or misleading narratives about people to suit their agenda. Like we saw this literally happen with the Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively case. We saw that this is the same firm the G U D E A found out recently like there was inauthentic behavior with Taylor Swift. I know we’ve seen it with yeah, Meghan Markle before. They don’t come out of nowhere. Like these places are hired specifically for bad press. And so that suggests in fact requires that there’s someone on the other end being like pull the trigger, let’s do this. And so I think when we’re we can’t say for certain, at least right now we don’t know who did this, but we can look at who would benefit from Chapel Roan being sort of painted as this unlikable pop star that needs to be shunned because I think we can look into some of the things that Chapelron stands really publicly for. And so, I mean one, she is a lesbian woman. She’s also very vocally pro trans, pro drag queens. I mean she credits them for like the inspiration between so much of her work. She’s also pro Palestine. In fact, in 2024, back in Biden’s White House, she rejected an invite to reform and she spoke about it on stage in sort of referencing the stat Statue of Liberty, saying that means because she was dressed as Statue of Liberty, quite crucially, freedom and trans rights, freedom and women’s rights. And it especially means freedom for all oppressed people in occupied territories. And then recently she actually parted ways with her talent agency, Wasserman Agency, because founder Casey Wasserman appeared in the Epstein Files exchanging emails with Ghislaine Maxwell, which is New York Times described as Jeffrey Epstein’s longtime companion. And that is I guess legally how we will describe her as. Well.

Speaker B: Right. I wasn’t sure if that was gonn if that would come up so. Because I was thinking about it, but I didn’t want to just like bring it up out of nowhere. But yeah, that is really interesting sort of seeing how she is. So if I can take a slight step back, it’s interesting because she stands for all of these things that all of like the liberal leftist Internet does stand for. And yet still so many of the people that are attacking her online. I’m thinking again, okay, Twitter.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Or just like TikTok or whatever. A lot of these platforms, a lot of these people who are ostensibly on exactly her side and have the exact same same political beliefs are like, no, but she sucks. And I’m thinking again, like Rachel Zegler is also very, very vocally pro Palestine. And she got into it with Mr. Platt, the very famous producer. And it was interesting sort of seeing the split where it’s like sometimes you’re the royal you, not me. Sometimes the hatred of a woman sort of supersedes all political connections where it’s like, yeah, obviously there are bad operators sort of pulling the strings behind the scenes. And I say that in the most non paranoid way possible. Like there’s science and. But also there is still this mass of just vitriol that comes, I think of Anne Helen Peterson, the writer and journalist and very, very prolific podcaster and substacker. She had a book that came out a couple of years ago, I think like nine years ago. this point. And it was called Too Fat, Too Loud, Too Slutty. Those words maybe not in that order. So you can fact check me very Eat, Pray, Love. Yes. Yeah. But she sort of wrote about this phenomenon where she would say, like, if you are outspoken as a woman, they will come for you. Right. I’m thinking of Katherine Heigl as well. Katherine Heigl, who I know we asterisk. Again, information has come out about Katherine, but.

Speaker A: But I will say I did. When I worked at a yarn store, I cut fabric for her.

Speaker B: Oh, was she nice?

Speaker A: She was nice. She also. She had a vape and a little dog mother. But, yes, I cut fabric for her mother.

Speaker B: Yeah. So Katherine Heigl was also, like, brutalized. Like, there are so many instances in history. And to tie it back to your overall point, right, if we make the logical conclusion, if I think of, like, women being canceled for speaking out and then, like, the very obvious Weinstein of it all, where a lot of very, very, very famous women of my generation were literally disappeared. Like, they disappeared from the industry because they spoke out against Weinstein. And then we never saw them again. And they’re all coming back now in their 50s and 60s and saying, oh, yeah, that’s why you didn’t see me for 20 years. Because, like, I said something about someone and they were pulling strings behind the scenes to make sure that I was never seen again.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it does seem like, obviously there was the initial sort of cycle where there was a lot of piling on Chapelroone. But then, like, a few days passed and people also started picking up on this, like, hmm, what was the most recent thing Chapelroone did? Part ways with an agency with ties to Epstein. And it’s not necessarily saying there’s a direct line, but there is. I would say, like, discussion started to turn on TikTok when I heard this clip show up.

Speaker F: I believe Chapel Roan is a victim of a targeted smear campaign and has been for quite some time. She and her team left. Left her talent agency or management company over a month ago because the founder was in the Epstein files. She has shown support for Palestine and other human rights issues. She’s been actively against the current administration. And I’m sure there are other reasons. When we think about who owns these agencies, who owns the media, and who’s in charge of making these stories go viral, I think we need to be more critical.

Speaker A: And like, five years ago, that would have been like, okay, like, take a chill pill. But now it’s like, no, we literally know there’s, like, people who are hired. Hired to do this. And I also think that’s another reason why, like, this isn’t just celebrity gossip, these sort of online cultural controversies. It’s like the people with agendas have figured out that they can use them as vehicles to sort of push whatever ideology they have. You know, like, because it’s trending, talking about it in general is more likely to get, you know, get yourself eyeballs. And then you can use that to sort of. Sort of push whatever you’re. You know, you can hang your narrative on it. An example of this, like, when we think about, wow, who. Who would be against the success of someone who was, you know, LGBTQ, pro Palestine feminist? It would be someone like conservative YouTuber Brett Cooper, who made this is a new name. He was new to me. But this is. This is someone who got their start at the Daily Wire, so dots are connecting. Yeah, yeah. And so she made a video about this instance. And I just. This is a small clip for me because it is a full half hour, but I wanted to pull this because we could talk about why. I think it’s an example of a conservative commentator using the Chapel Roan controversy to push a very specific agenda.

Speaker E: We already know that Chapel Roan doesn’t like children. Like, literally this time last year, I did an episode of the show about Chapel’s Call Her Daddy episode where she said that back. Back at home in Missouri, all of her friends that have kids are in h***. Apparently. She said they’re miserable. She didn’t know a single happy parent. It all just looks awful. She can’t ever see herself having children like Chapel. Sorry not to psychoanalyze you, but maybe that was projection. Maybe that was your own dislike of the lifestyle of children. Maybe now that we’ve seen this interaction, or at least heard about it, now we’re really understanding where those viral comments from 2025 actually came from.

Speaker A: Dislike of the lifestyle of children.

Speaker B: Dislike of the lifestyle of children. I love that.

Speaker A: But one of the things, I mean, to me, that is. So the video is about so much more. But, like, that hammering on that point particularly felt like it really played into the very homophobic trope of, like, oh, gay people, lesbian women hate children, and they’re a threat to family values. And that they’re quite literally a threat to family values. Cause they’re sending their security guard after your children. And under that lens, all of this is so much more sinister.

Speaker B: It’s so funny, too, because, like, obviously this is anecdotal data. This is not, you know, science, but all of the lesbians I know have children. Okay. But I was hoping that you would bring that up because it’s something that like sort of. I remember on Substack, I defended her and I was like, when you speak to. I think this is a sort of in group out, group thing where when you speak to a parent, they very often will say, I’m so tired, I’m miserable. My kids are running all over the place, I’m up till I’m up at 6am and they don’t go to bed, blah, blah, blah. But then if you do not have children and you were like, that seems unpleasant. You are crucified. Like, you are not allowed as a person who doesn’t have children to sort of comment on the situation. So I defended Chapel on Substack, I was like, you guys constantly talk about how miserable you are. Like every single parent on Substack there has been a wave. And I think taking again, a step back, like, sociologically, we know that women are doing the vast majority of domestic labor, right? So when women talk about, like, I’m so tired, I’m so miserable, blah, blah, blah, because I’m working a full time job and then also taking care of the kids and doing laundry and cooking and cleaning, et cetera. Again, this might not be your situation, but statistically. And then if you comment on any of those things, people get mad at you. And it’s like, well, we’re talking about demographics, we’re talking about data, we’re talking about macro. Chapel didn’t say, my friend Kaylee is miserable. She said, all of my friends in Missouri who again, are coming from this very specific place, a very specific socioeconomic background. Like, it does not take a sort of mathematician or a genius to say, coming from this place where I come from, with a lack of resources, all of these people who had kids at 18, 19, 20 are now not happy. Like, I don’t know. I was like, again, I think it is an in group out, group thing where people are taking this thing as this very sort of lightning rod moment of saying, okay, she obviously hates kids because she said she hated kids. And like, it’s. She didn’t say she hated kids. She said that a lot of her friends are miserable because they are doing the vast majority of their domestic labor and they’re also like under 25. Like, these aren’t shocking or crazy things to say.

Speaker A: No. And again, it’s so funny to have that comment be resurrected and how that was its own discourse cycle last year when Literally today I saw a clip of Seth Rogen on the Kelly Clarkson show where he’s literally like, chapel was very careful. He literally says to her. Cause she’s asking, why doesn’t he have kids? Which is like everyone’s favorite question to ask celebrities that don’t have kids. And he’s like. Cause it looks like it sucks. Like, he literally, like, does not mince words. He’s like, everything like. Like that I do with my life, I could not do if I had a kid. And my wife and I will often look to each other when we’re doing something fun and go, we couldn’t do this if we had kids. And I haven’t seen a single peep.

Speaker B: Well, it’s portrayed as, like, funny and cute because I saw it, it came up on my feed and it was like, oh, my God, so cute. And I said, oh, so it’s cute when he says it.

Speaker A: Yes, because, like, men are already like, they, like, you know, it’s okay if they don’t care about their kids even if they have them. And so it’s like, not. It doesn’t flag. And I feel like we both keep being like, sorry for making such a simple comparison. But it’s like sometimes it is just that. It is just people, like, hate women. They hate women who don’t want children because it doesn’t go with sort of the larger ideology that they have.

Speaker B: And to bring in another example very, very quickly, I did a video last year, I think it was December, where I talked about Tom Brady. Tom Brady gave the statement to Sports Illustrated or to espn, excuse me. And he was like, I wish that I could be a better father.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I literally, because I was like, you got divorced because you went back to the sport. You promised your wife you would quit. You got divorced and lost custody of your kids because of you. Everything that has happened to you was your decision and your fault. And now he’s like, playing it for sympathy and saying, I just wish I could spend more time with my kids. And I’m like, why aren’t you spending time with your kids? Let’s connect some dots. Tom Brady.

Speaker A: No, truly. And then what feels even sort of worse about how these sort of pro family narratives is just one. But like any of the sort of narratives against Chapel Rowan, when they get adopted by people with these right wing agendas is like you said, people who would say they don’t have those ideologies at all get swept up in it. And people who would say they’re like, vehemently opposed to the things that, like, someone like Brett Cooper preaches. I mean, she has criticized the feminist movement. Movement criticized abortion. She calls trans issues transgenderism. Like, she is someone that you do not want to be associated with. And yet I’m thinking of a recent example is, like, a website, like, well, betches the website. Not that necessarily. They’re known for the, like, blistering feminist commentary, but. But they did post a thing about, like, we were giving Chapel Rowan a performance review about how to be better at being famous. And, like, just did. Basically got on the train of, like, Chapel Roan hates being famous. She’s a bad celebrity. We’re gonna make it better. And they did get backlash because it’s like, whose side are you on here? Like, when at a certain point, if you’re agreeing with Brett Cooper, who, again, I did not know about before today, thankfully, you made her up. Yeah, but, like, now I’m like, look around at who’s with you and be like, who does my hatred of Chapelroone for, like, getting a little Twitter joke off? Like, who is that actually helping? Because overall, like, one little joke, like, yeah, I’ll laugh at the things that are, like, Chapel Roan, when she sees a child, and it’s like a gif of someone pushing a child in a pool.

Speaker B: It’s like, it’s funny initially, but then it’s like, why does this exist?

Speaker A: Right? Why does this exist? And why does us finding that funny and normalizing it, like, what does us doing that on scale achieve? And it achieves basically allowing this woman who, again, all she did was in August 2024, go, please stop stalking my family. And ever since then has been made to feel that that was, like, an unreasonable demand. All this does is continue to paint her as, like, this hag who, like, hates her fans and who walks around just, like, you know, sending security guards against kids and, like, slapping her fans on the face, like, when that has actually never been what she said.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker A: But it behooves certain people for that to be our impression of her. And I would feel, let’s just say, upset if I found out that I was furthering that agenda.

Speaker B: I will also say this is how you know that I’m not a real sociologist, because I’m hitting, like, the big three. It’s, like, gender demographics, and I’m gonna do class. But it is interesting because it feels like. Like, what you’re saying about Betches and their backlash that, like, people. Because Chapel has obviously moved into a new class position. Obviously, like I said, she’s not Beyonce but she is successful and people are like, well, you’re rich now, right? It’s sort of this, like, classic us versus them divide, where it’s like, because you are now wealthy, you are not allowed to complain about people harassing you in the street and saying, hi, baby, when you’re trying to go to dinner. Like, it is this thing. I mean, I’m online and I’m thinking about it sort of, you know, sociologically. And I’m like, why would people feel so strongly that, like, your boundaries don’t matter, your personhood doesn’t matter? And it’s like, we lived through this with Britney Spears. We lived through this through all of the aughts, right? Paris Hill and Nicole Richie. I was just talking about Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert, which is all about the early aughts. Literally the entire book takes place between 2000 and 2009. And it is about how the. The paparazzi media, Hollywood apparatus sort of like chewed women up and spit them out, right? We’ve been talking about this for 20 full years. Jessica Simpson being harassed about her weight. We know how badly these things can go and what happens. And it’s still, like, disappointing to see the Internet take the side of shut up. You wanted this.

Speaker A: Okay? That’s the show. Thank you so much to Josh Laura for speaking with us. With us, you can follow him at tellthe bees on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. And speaking of YouTube, we have officially launched our YouTube channel. It is the same handle as our Instagram icymypod, and it is where we will be posting many of our upcoming episodes, including this one in the coming days. But don’t worry, we’ll still be coming right to your ears every Wednesday and Saturday like normal. You’ll just be getting more icymi than you used to. So with that being said, we will be back in your feed on Wednesday, so definitely subscribe. That way you never miss an episode. To see all the visuals referenced in today’s episode, you can follow us on Instagram Cymipod and you can always drop us a note@icymilate.com ICYMI is produced by Vic Whitley Berry and me, Kate Lindsay. Daisy Rosario is our senior supervising producer. Mia Lobel is Slate’s executive producer of podcasts, and Hilary Fry is Slate’s editor in chief. See you online or saying hi, baby in Chapelroan’s Instagram story.